Maintaining Motivation, Avoiding Narcisistic Mentors & Healthy Boundaries in Online Coaching – Sustainable Entrepreneurship with Mark Walsh

By the end of this episode you’ll know: 

• How to feel purpose in your body 
• Common myths about boundaries propagated online
• How to set embodied, firm, and effective boundaries in relationships and business 
• How to choose between authentic loneliness with purpose or inauthenticity.
• How to re-connect to yourself after losing motivation and hobbies after trauma healing 
• Why high levels of success in any field often come with some level of neurosis or unhealthy drive.

Plus, we explore the trap of entitlement in online coaching…and that no one is entitled to an easy, fulfilling career—success requires effort, talent, and sometimes luck.

Who’s Mark Walsh?

Mark Walsh is the The Embodiment Podcast, co-leader of The Embodiment Conference, and co-founder of the Embodied Facilitator Course and Certificate of Embodiment Coaching, with extensive experience in trauma education, resilience, and martial arts across 40 countries, including work with corporations like Google and Unilever.

https://embodimentunlimited.com/

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] What the hell is Pappas. And how do you feel it in your body? How do you set boundaries and why is the online coaching industry? So toxic? Whether you are dealing with narcissistic Mentos or avoiding burnout, or balancing your business growth with your personal wellbeing.

[00:00:14] Mach Walsh. My guest and I are going to explore all of these themes in today’s podcast. But then at this episode, you will know how to feel purpose in your body. Common myths around boundaries that are propagated online. And even by therapists. How to set, embodied feminine, effective boundaries, how to choose between authentic loneliness. With purpose or in authenticity and pain. How to reconnect to yourself after losing motivation and even your hobbies and identity after trauma healing. [00:01:00] And why high levels of success in any field often come with some level of neurosis or unhealthy drive. Plus we explore the trap of entitlement in the online coaching industry and the fact that no one is entitled to an easy fulfilling career.

[00:01:14] So sex success requires effort, talent, and sometimes luck. So, who am I speaking with? Mach wall is the host. Of the embodiment podcast. He is also leader of embodiment conferences and courses, and he’s been doing embodiment, coaching and support online. Offline. All of the weld for many, many years, he is a leader in embodiment industry, and I’m really privileged and honored to have him on.

[00:01:41] He has a lot of experience in trauma, education, resilience, martial arts. He’s worked with corporations. He works with individuals and. You know, corporations like Google and. all that. And also in Ukraine, in war-torn areas, you know, teaching a buddy man outside of a bombshell inside of a bomb 

[00:02:00]shelter. Uh, Let’s get into it. Let’s ask the questions.

[00:02:05] This is going to be a very entertaining. entertaining. episode for you guys.

[00:02:11] Sheridan and Mark: Can I rapid fire some questions at you from my own personal curiosity? Sure. Cool. One of the things that. I respect and admire in you is your ability to have your hands in so many pots at the same time, uh, and find a way to serve so many people.

[00:02:29] But it feels like it’s pretty clear what the purpose and the mission is. How do you, what does that? How do you use embodiment and your training to support you in having all of these different pieces and all of these different purposes and missions and like, what does it actually feel like for you on the inside?

[00:02:49] I mean, I only really do one thing, which is I teach embodiment. And then I kind of run practicalities around that. So there is a degree of complexity in, [00:03:00] you know, running YouTube channel and writing books and making time for all that, managing staff, et cetera. Um, how does it feel? It feels one of two ways.

[00:03:08] So either I’m doing the main thing I love, which is teaching or coaching embodiment. And that is just pure flow. Like I’m in just in a flow state while I’m doing that. I almost don’t feel much because I’m just in it. I’m dissolved. Um, or I’m doing all the other stuff, which feels kind of like a chore and slightly annoying.

[00:03:30] Um, and I try and minimize the other stuff and I’ve worked various systems trying to figure out how to minimize it. And there’s no perfect answer as far as I can tell. I agree. What would you say to the person who’s At that point where they need to make a decision around whether or not they prioritize doing the boring stuff.

[00:03:49] To get to the point where they get to do the flow work, what would be your words of wisdom? Yeah, I mean, there’s this saying, don’t do anything that isn’t play, and there’s some truth in that and some bullshit in that.

[00:04:00]So, I will always, for example, employ people I like, so I’m never in a meeting with someone I hate.

[00:04:05] Like, I like my team just as people, you know, they’re fun, cool, lovely people. Um, so when I have a marketing meeting with Steve, We are joking, and we had a marketing meeting yesterday, I was literally just walking along talking to him about the latest ideas for our trauma course. And we’re making jokes, and we’re telling stories, I’m asking him about his wife, who’s pregnant, so it’s nice.

[00:04:24] So that’s the first thing I’d say, is make sure you don’t work with dickheads, like that’s something to live by. Like I employ on personality more than anything else. Um, secondly, You will need to outsource if you’re going to have any time. I don’t do anything. I really am merciless in having boundaries around not doing crappy things.

[00:04:46] So even though I make most of my marketing and other things playful and enjoyable, both in the methods, like I like podcasting. So even though it’s marketing, I really enjoy learning on the podcast. It doesn’t feel like marketing. Um, everything else that[00:05:00] can’t feel like play, I try to outsource. Like I’m getting on a flight.

[00:05:03] today to go teach in Vienna. I haven’t booked a flight in over 15 years. I just don’t enjoy it. So I pay someone else to do that. That then creates the problem of management. So now I’m managing whoever I’m outsourcing to, right? Whether it’s full time employee or part time person or just, yeah, gig economy, whatever, I’ve still got to manage it.

[00:05:23] Right. And if I employ someone to manage that, I’ve still got to manage them. So that. Isn’t always the most fun and there are tensions there. You know, people want to do different work, less work, more work, whatever. So that creates a different challenge. Um, so I don’t, I’ve had models of one man band. One man band plus good PA that works quite well.

[00:05:45] Um, what we’re on now, it’s like five full time employees plus a few gig economy people and 25 employees, medium sized company with 2 million pound turnover. I hated that last one cause I was just managing the one we’re doing now seems to [00:06:00] be the best mix. Cause when I was one man band or plus PA, I had to do too much stuff.

[00:06:05] I didn’t like that. I didn’t have any management. So. That, and I think there’s no solution here, and there’s no perfect solution, and it depends who you are as well. Some people might really like management. They’re much more people, you know, I’m highly disagreeable. So for me, it’s less, less fun than for someone who might be a real people person.

[00:06:23] So, um, yeah, that’s, that’s the balance I’ve struck at the moment is to have a small company. Yeah. You mentioned something about boundaries. And I would love to, I’m going to take us a few different places. Cause I feel like you have so much to teach both from the embodiment perspective and also just live life experience that people are going to be asking, but podcast listeners always ask me, well, you know, how do I, how do I.

[00:06:47] How do I understand boundaries? How do I work my own? How do I know where my boundaries are? How do I know when I’m setting a boundary and it’s manipulating or controlling? How do I, how do I set a boundary? How do I have boundaries with my clients or with my employee [00:07:00] or with my mother? What’s your big take on boundaries and how do we set them?

[00:07:04] Okay. I think you’re overthinking it a bit for starters. I mean, it’s just being able to say no to people. I mean, where it gets complicated is that is an embodied skill. So it’s not a cognitive thing. It’s actually an embodied capability. You know, I do run eight week courses on boundaries from time to time.

[00:07:20] So there’s a lot I could say. Um, the main thing is, do you have the embodied capacity to say no? Uh, can you say a polite no, a firm no, and an aggressive no? You need to be able to have a scale of no, because sometimes it’s no thank you. And sometimes it’s no, fuck you. Right? How dare you get the fuck out of my office.

[00:07:36] Like, both of those are necessary. How you say no to a 10 year old child is not how you say no to your mother, is not how you say no to your boss. Like, I actually teach my employees to say no to me. I say, hey boss, would you like me to do X or Y? Because I only have the capacity for one. Which would you like me to do?

[00:07:55] Right? Because what I hate is when employees just drop things. They say, Oh, I didn’t have time. I’m like, yeah, but that wasn’t the [00:08:00]priority. You know, come on, come and talk to me about priorities. So, you know, there are some skills to learn technically, but mostly people overthink it. And as soon as we start saying like boundaries, it’s this weird, abstract, therapeutical thing.

[00:08:13] Everybody’s watching too many bloody Instagram videos on it. And it’s just being able to say no to people. Yes, I agree with you 100%. And it, I hate that term. Because it becomes this, yeah, like convoluted strategy and whenever we’re in strategy led, I feel uncomfortable because I feel that we’re coming from fear.

[00:08:34] So, and not embodiment. How do you, can you walk us through a super, super, super simple way? I understand that there’s nuance to this, but how would somebody identify inside of their body a no, and how, What do they do when they’ve identified inside of their body that it’s a no, but their mind is going into what if 

[00:09:00] scenarios that get them in their head.

[00:09:03] Uh huh. What do you mean? So there’s the embodied capacity for no. So the easiest way to find that would be to do a push up, like do a chaturanga. Like if you do a push up or a chaturanga, that’s a push away, right? So that’s the feeling of no. Yeah. And you know, wouldn’t do that aggressively. You wouldn’t do that passively.

[00:09:20] You could contrast being too floppy and passive, being aggressive and off center and tense and finding that sort of relaxed, boundary firm middle point. Like that’s how you’d find the somatic. capacity for it. And then you need to practice that because we need to practice embodiment. You can lean on a wall.

[00:09:36] That’d be another way to find that firm. You know, nobody’s unboundaried when they lean on a wall because you’d smash your face in it, wouldn’t you? So it’s like, like we could all do it. So that’s the feeling of it that you then have to find a way to embody in life in a sort of micro way without, you know, having to do a press up, which obviously wouldn’t be appropriate in the middle of a business meeting or something.

[00:09:53] Um, I mean, what people are looking for is also that they’re tuning into their body. A lot of people are missing their distress response. [00:10:00]So if you’ve not built body awareness through meditation, through yoga, through practice, you’ll miss that you’re saying yes, but no. So as a coach, for example, I really look for this.

[00:10:09] I’ll say like, Hey Sheridan, is it alright if I tickle your nose? And you’ll be like, yeah. So your body’s actually saying no, your body’s having a distress response, even if your words are saying yes. So I take that as a no. Right. So when I hear that as a coach, I’m like, are you sure? And then I help people find their note as a coach by being like, Oh, I say like, take a breath.

[00:10:32] Do you really want me to tickle your notes? And I’m like, actually, no, it’s weird. I’m like, okay, yeah, I won’t then. Okay. So like giving people that space to notice their stress response when they’re saying yes, it’s part of the process. There’s lots more I could say, but that’s the basics. Yeah. I like, I like that.

[00:10:49] I like that.

[00:10:53] I remember years ago, my teacher put his hand on my thigh. He’s an old man, right? He puts his hand on my thigh and I’m like totally weirded out. And he’s like, is that [00:11:00] okay? I’m like, yeah, cause I trust you. And he’s like, what’s your body telling you? I’m like, my body’s telling me to get the fuck off. He’s like, well, tell me then.

[00:11:06] I’m like, get off me. He’s like, okay. Right. So he was like training me through like a body process to notice that, that bodily though. Yeah. Yeah, and it’s really interesting because I’ve noticed, I was speaking about this with a client this morning, that there are certain people, you and I are probably more attuned to it because our jobs have been reading and attuning to other people and probably many of our listeners will be more attuned of like, we, we, we’ve picked, we learned to pick up on those things.

[00:11:34] We’ve spent many, many hours. practicing it. But I had a client this morning and we’ve noticed that in her, uh, relationship, she tends to have a lot of people who she’ll express no and their response to her no, and I think it’s a cultural thing in the culture that she’s living in, but also a very personal thing.

[00:11:56] Their response to her no is always to move forward. Oh no, [00:12:00]it’s fine, don’t worry about it. Oh no. And that’s where, that’s where you need to be violent. So, um, I’m half joking, that if you’ve trained people not to say you’re, not to listen to you, because you always say yes, first of all, that’s your fault, take responsibility for that.

[00:12:14] Secondly, you might just be in a culture where that’s normal. Thirdly, families do this all. The time, like if your mother doesn’t do this, I would be surprised, right? To listeners. So, um, that’s where you need to be more assertive, right? So you can’t just have a, no, we have a no pose and a system called toolkit.

[00:12:31] I teach and it has a fist in it because the first no is no. The second no is, don’t do that. The third no is, I will hurt you if you keep pushing. And like, if there’s no teeth, there’s no no. There are people who will abuse you out of habit, out of culture, or because they’re psychopaths. You know, there are real predators out there.

[00:12:53] But most people aren’t predators. They’re just used to getting what they want. They want what they want. They’re used to you being a pushover. And now [00:13:00] you’ve got to retrain them. And that might mean some arguments. There’s one girl I’m coaching at the moment, Who I’d say is going to lose about a third of her friends, because she just learned to say no.

[00:13:09] And a third of them, she’s in Italy, and there it’s very social, communal culture like Spain. And people are like, well, you have to come out. It’s my birthday. You have to, you have to. Don’t you love me? And they start trying to be manipulative. And she’s finding it really difficult, but she’s getting there and I’d say a third of her friends got it really quickly and were happy for her.

[00:13:26] A third of her friends got it painfully, but they’re getting it. And a third, she’s going to have to cut loose because they’re just, they’re just essentially abusive people. Yeah. I have clients like that as well. What’s your take on that? Like where, here’s the question I want to ask. Cause this is the question that they ask me.

[00:13:43] It’s how do I be in that middle space? Where I’ve just lost a large part of my community that I was relying on because I’ve been prioritizing myself. But I’m not yet at that next point where I’ve got these amazing relationships. I

[00:14:00]feel so seen. How do I navigate that? No man’s land in between. Yeah, so first of all, people, there’s one more piece here that often people go through what I call the obnoxious stage when they’re learning boundaries, where they’re actually being overbounded.

[00:14:13] Now, I’m not doing it. And I’m like, you probably shouldn’t speak to your boss that way. You know, it’s like, maybe don’t say it like that to your mom, you know, maybe cut your mom some slack because you were in her womb. So she’s a bit unbounded with you, you know, so it’s like, like, there is a stage where people overshoot and they get a bit bratty kind of thing.

[00:14:29] Like I had one employee who was going through that stage. It was just a pain in the ass. I just eye rolled for a couple of years till they got over it. And it’s like, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a learning stage, so you could be overshooting it. That’s the first thing to understand, you know, that relationship, this whole, like, I’m the boss of me and nothing else matters.

[00:14:44] It’s not very relational. So, you know, that is also necessary. Uh, what people really want who are like people, pleaser people is to have boundaries, but for everyone to love them and they need to first of all, accept that’s not fucking possible. Yeah, that, that, that they’re going to lose some people. Um, [00:15:00] then I would say it’s like, well, if.

[00:15:02] Your meaning in life comes from a sense of purpose. Other people are a bonus for that. I mean, it’s just codependent to need other people, like, in the sense of like, I mean, we’re all social animals. So it’s nice to have friends. Solitary confinements are a pain in the ass, you know, solitary retreats are hard, but that’s a bonus.

[00:15:20] Like, that’s not like, I’d say a big thing I’m interested in is like meaning in life and where society is at currently. If you have a strong meaning in life, you know, Nelson Mandela is willing to sit in a prison cell on his own if necessary, he’d rather not, but he’s got a good reason to do that. Yeah, sure.

[00:15:38] There’s going to be times when it’s lonely. So what? Suck it up. I mean, you’ve got a choice, right? You can be someone who’s lonely and hated from time to time, and is doing something significant on purpose, saying original things, being authentic. Or you can be a drone who’s inauthentic and tries to make everyone loves them and dies lonely anyway, because no one is really seeing them.

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] So, I mean, the choice is between one kind of loneliness and another. Yeah. And I want to get your intake on the, on the purpose. Cause I, whenever I’m working with somebody, I noticed this pattern. And I don’t know if you’ve will have noticed the same thing where they’re very, uh, motivated to achieve something.

[00:16:20] Then we do a lot of trauma healing. They discover that their motivation to achieve that thing. Was possibly not the healthiest and it’s no longer, or just is no longer motivating. Cause it’s like that loop has been closed and then we have to figure out, okay, well, what’s my frigging purpose? What, how do you figure out your purpose?

[00:16:41] Yeah, it’s a great question. I love talking to you, Sheridan. Um, another example, this is like, I have martial arts friends. I do a lot of martial arts and sometimes they do their trauma healing and they no longer want to do martial arts because the world doesn’t seem dangerous, you know, and they kind of lose their hobby.

[00:16:54] Um, and some of them just go, you know what, I’m going to keep turning up to teach the kids class because, you know, whatever that has meaning and then eventually [00:17:00] they find another meaning to do martial arts other than their original pathological one. I mean, we’re all neurotic, right? We’re all driven by, I need everyone to love me or I need to be seen or something deeply neurotic, right?

[00:17:10] I, particularly when you meet like famous, successful people, they are crazy. Like I’ve met some really successful people and they’re the nuts. They’re absolutely nuts. Totally. Like to it, particularly given the sort of global competition to be like a. top podcaster or a top basketball player or anything.

[00:17:26] You have to be nuts these days. Like we’ve almost made a system where if you’re not nuts, you probably won’t make it. Um, so yeah, you need to keep reassessing that. And it’s like, what’s the healthier version of this? Is there like my motivation to teach embodiment over the years, it goes up, it goes down, it changes.

[00:17:44] You know, like I wanted to be a real someone and then I did the embodiment conference, which was like three or four years ago now. And that was really big and a half a million people came and I was like, Oh, I got that and saw that it was pretty unsatisfying. And now I’m just not interested in that. So it’s like, okay, I’ll run a smaller[00:18:00] business, quiet thing.

[00:18:00] I’m not going to do such big things. You know, then I went to Ukraine. It’s like, I’m going to be a hero in a war zone. And then I realized that was partly pathological. And I was like, why am I seeking danger? That doesn’t make sense. Uh, still supported that project, but you know, they were like, come back to Ukraine.

[00:18:13] I was like, no, let’s do the next training in Poland. Not in a bomb shelter where it’s nice. Cause Krakow is lovely and you can get on the train. I’m not doing it in a bomb shelter. So, you know, your motivation changes over the years. I think of purpose, not as a. thing that you find, but it’s more like a, a magnetic north you have to keep orientating to.

[00:18:34] And that means regular reorientation over the years. Yeah. And how do you feel that in your body? How would you know in your body that you found it? Usually this is one of two things. So it’s either like energized. So it’s like, yeah, I want to get up. I’ve got loads of energy for this. You know, like, this is great.

[00:18:49] Like, yeah, cool. You know, I don’t mind doing an interview at 8am, whatever, let’s do it. You know, there’s not the energy for it. And the second one is more like a kind of deep. Ease or like, you might feel this with a [00:19:00]partner. You’re like sitting on a couch next to them and it’s just like really easeful.

[00:19:06] Like, Oh yeah, this is the right place for me. So it’s usually a mix of the excitement and the ease, like a good marriage is those two things, right? It’s like you see them and you want to jump their bones, but also they’re the person you can just sit and not talk with. It’s like, they’re the two feelings I think in a relationship that are also worth feeling for.

[00:19:24] And if you just have one, you might want to be a bit. Yeah. Something’s missing definition. That’s so good. And because it’s also about, well, I don’t know. I think about, uh, the, for me, that feeling of, am I motivated to do this because it’s coming from, uh, an insecure part of me that feels that it needs to prove something or achieve something.

[00:19:45] I’m not enough, or am I motivated to do this because You know, perhaps it’s influenced by my past experiences, but it’s also where I fit in, in the world. And that excitement, it’s [00:20:00] like a toxic boyfriend. It’s like, Oh yeah. Like the chemistry is there, but like, I’ll do this work for free forever for 12 hours a day.

[00:20:10] You know, you’ve got to be careful with that one. No, no, no, no. We want the other one. You also said something earlier that I think for me is what helped me to find what my skills are Purpose, I suppose, like dissolving, feeling like you melt into it. Yeah. So when I teach, time just flies by. So, you know, if you look at, I’ve had various experts on flow states on my podcast and, you know, various teachers on this, I value.

[00:20:38] And timelessness, uh, ease as well. Like, it’s just very easy for me to teach. Like, since I was a kid, like the first time I ever taught, everyone was like, Oh, you’ve done this before. I was like, no. And of course, you know, you get better without like any skill that you build. Yeah. Um, you know, 000 hours probably of teaching right now.

[00:20:54] So there’s, you know, experience is part of it, but that, uh, flow state for me, [00:21:00] like entering into sort of timeless flow state, I’m not thinking about myself. And when I went for a period where I was like burnt out and depressed and the only relief I ever got from that was when I was teaching or coaching and it’s kind of like, you know, Yoda, when he goes into fight and he crawls there and he’s got his little stick and then he does the Jedi fight and he’s jumping around, he’s mad with his lightsaber and afterwards he gets his stick back and he hobbles off.

[00:21:20] It was like that, it was mad. Cause it was like, okay, this is the thing that’s, um, just my happy place. So, yeah, I think finding that means, you know, you, you minimize the amount of actual work you have to do. This, this concept of work is actually quite a strange one. So, um, yeah, if you can find that, then that’s wonderful.

[00:21:39] And you know, you’re Australian adults, there’s going to be chores, right? Like, it’s okay. Like, I brushed my teeth this morning. I wasn’t like, oh my god, I’m not on purpose. What’s the problem? You know, it’s just, you know, there’s chores. That’s fine. Sometimes some, you know, checking my taxes is chores. It’s fine.

[00:21:51] I’m a grown up. Yeah. Yeah. We’re grown ups and sometimes we have to kind of accept that. And also it’s really cool because [00:22:00] now we’re a grown up and we have agency and choice, which means that all that other shit that happened when we were a kid, probably less likely to occur. So like. You know, two sides of one quite, uh, yeah.

[00:22:11] Question. Can you speak to me about leadership and embodied leadership? I see you smiling, so what’s happening inside ? Yeah, I just, I, I recorded a 30 hour course on that topic. Literally 30 hours of content. Okay. So can have a bit more specific, can I be, I’ll give you more specific specificity. How do I go?

[00:22:36] How, how would you recommend our listeners who are probably, they’re at the beginning of, I think, the journey as it relates to leading a team or leading a movement or leading a purpose. So they’re transitioning from just me and what I want to, what am I leading? Who am I leading? What is mine? What am I protecting?

[00:22:59] What am I [00:23:00] pursuing? Like who am I as a leader? They’re transitioning into that first place of identity around leadership. And they’re learning

[00:23:10] to feel that way. Okay. So how can I help? How would you encourage them? Or what things would they need to focus on to actually integrate that into their system? To go from that place of they they, if they had the insight, yeah. Oh, I’m a leader. I have this thing, I have this purpose. Like, oh my god. Yeah. So they’re exciting.

[00:23:36] They’ve got a thing they love. Yep. They’ve got a thing they love, but then they go back to like their job or their work and they just kind of forget about it. Okay, so they are leading people, or is it they’re more on the self leadership part? Because when people talk about leadership, the first part is self leadership, right?

[00:23:54] So this is, for example, their ability to self regulate. Like the person you just channeled there was pretty unregulated, right? They’re excited, they’re a [00:24:00] passionate, which is great. You’ve got to find the passion, but you also need to find the regulation. Like, you know, I’m getting on a plane today, right?

[00:24:05] Imagine if the pilot’s like, um, hi, welcome to EasyJet. And, um, I’m really excited. I hope we get there on time. Like, that’s very different than, you know, welcome to British Airways. Here’s your captain. My name is Colin. I’ve been doing this for 30 years. I’m terribly calm and your mother would find me attractive.

[00:24:21] You know, like, so part of the self regulation is the beginning of building trust with others. So that’s the first things like that. Are they aware of their own embodiment? Are they aware of their own typology? You know, knowing, you know, we have a system for this, that we take people through self awareness as part of it, then self regulation after self awareness.

[00:24:38] Then it’s the tuning into others, right? Like if you’re going to be a leader, you need that skill of empathy, of listening. Like we were talking about earlier, you noticing people’s boundaries, you tuned into people, you know, my employees, happy, unhappy, exhausted, energized, uh, being them, we have embodied leadership proper, which rests on those three skills.

[00:24:54] So in my book, I. Break this down in terms of like skill sets. So it’s, you know, the business people love this because it’s very [00:25:00]concrete. It’s like, you know, HR talks about capacities and things. And embodied leadership proper is the ability to inspire, to regulate, to up and down regulate people. And that’s very natural, right?

[00:25:10] Like you do that. Anyone who has kids does that, you know, you’re like, calm down kids. Or you’re like, come on kids, time for school. You know, there’s an embodied capacity there. And we understand that someone being purely cognitive as sort of, you know, hello, my name is Norman. I’m your manager. You know, it’s.

[00:25:25] Just not in their body that’s not got those skills. It’s not compelling in the same way. I’m not sure if I’m asking you a question, answering your question, but maybe that gives you some stuff to orientate around. Can I tell you what I’m hearing and what I really want to encourage the listeners to take away?

[00:25:40] You actually can’t skip the self leadership. Oh no, that’s the beginning. And you have to do it really, really freaking well. Before you can probably consider doing it effective in an embodied way with other people, not to say that there aren’t leaders out there that aren’t self regulated that aren’t leading.

[00:25:57] There’s lots. I wouldn’t follow them. [00:26:00] Yeah. I mean, most people help others too soon, myself included, like, you know, the first half of our coaching course is self, is like self awareness and self regulation, the first 50 percent at least. So it’s, that’s like people that work with trauma, myself included, nearly always do it before they’re healed enough to be doing it effectively.

[00:26:19] Yeah. Yeah. And it’s like, modeling is the most, um, effective thing anyway. People copy what you do, not what you say. You know, I do an exercise, a fun game with this, I do a workshop and I’ll, I’ll say everyone touch your knees and I’ll touch my elbows and everyone touches, everyone touches their elbows.

[00:26:37] Cause that’s what I did. They ignore what you say. Yeah. So yeah. Jumping prematurely into helping others when you haven’t got your own shit together I think is um, an understandable, forgivable mistake. Yes. And we all do it and I’ve done it and we try to do our best. I agree. Okay. I’m going to ask you one more question.

[00:26:59] Then we’re going to pop [00:27:00] off. This is for my listener who is working really hard and building their business and building their practice and doing all the things. And they are anxious about money and figuring out how to build their practice in a sustainable way without burnout and, and feel confident in their finances.

[00:27:22] Okay. I know that this is a really big topic. What is one way that you wish that you could support people? Cause you know, you and I know these people, we’ve seen them around. What is one thing that you wish that they could, um, understand or play with or practice? Understand that money is a form of self care.

[00:27:47] And self abusing around it isn’t kind or wise. It doesn’t make you spiritual. This is sort of inner work that often needs to be done. Sometimes it’s trauma work. Sometimes it’s just belief work. It’s a bit more shallow. Sometimes it’s just re you know, rehab it for me, [00:28:00] but understanding that how you orientate to money is a form of self care and, um, The other thing I’d say is, you don’t have a right to do something awesome.

[00:28:10] Most of the world are rice farmers, and factory workers, and just people working bullshit jobs in admin, and you know, Crawley, or somewhere terrible like that, no offense if you’re listening from Crawley, it’s a place in England that’s not very inspiring. And um, Nobody says you get to be a yoga teacher who lives virtually in Portugal out of a caravan, has a cool life and surfs in their lunch break.

[00:28:32] So if you want that life, then yeah, you’re going to have to really grind. You’re going to have to do some serious work. Uh, I think, uh, if you’re not prepared to do that for at least some of your life, not saying you should have to work hard forever. You could work smart eventually. Um, why do you get to do the yoga teacher on the beach in Portugal?

[00:28:50] rather than the shitty factory worker or office job. So, um, don’t be entitled about it. Like, understand that that is a, it’s a huge opportunity we have. Like, we have an opportunity that [00:29:00] my dad, or definitely my granddad could have just dreamt of, you know, today. If you’re smart, you’ve got a laptop, you’ve got an amazing opportunity.

[00:29:06] Uh, but no one owes you anything. So, uh, good luck. Yeah, I appreciate that perspective because I don’t know about you, but I feel I honestly have just felt like vomiting at the coaching industry for the past couple of months because it seems like there’s such a level of, this is me being transparent, a level of entitlement that we just don’t have.

[00:29:29] Like, and it’s not wrong or bad, but it’s uncomfortable to me. It’s bad and wrong. It’s bad and wrong. It’s right on our system. It’s bad and wrong. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It’s obnoxious. Uh, travel more, speak to poor people, read more history, understand the position of massive good fortune you’re in to even have a shot.

[00:29:50] Um, but you have a shot based on your talent and hard work and still luck, right? Those three factors are still there. You need all three to succeed. [00:30:00] So just to get a good roll of the dice, you need the talent and the hard work. So, um, yeah. Enough. Entitled. Obnoxious. Why is my decaf oat soy latte not hot enough?

[00:30:13] Peasant. Uh, Portuguese cafe worker, you know, I’m trying to be a digital nomad. Fuck that it’s obnoxious. It is. And also like guys, good travel. I like, I lived in Columbia for 10 years and it’s the best fricking thing I’ve done. And I didn’t, they speak English for five years and I would not take it away.

[00:30:28] And that’s the thing that, and you’ve been, you’ve done similar things. And what I’m hearing from you is like, Your friends are a privilege, your relationships are a privilege, they are add ons, your business and your purpose is an add on, it is all, it is all an add on, you’re not entitled to any of it.

[00:30:43] Every day where you’re not starving or getting bombed is a good day, like one of my friends in Ukraine just sent me a picture, I said, hey, do you remember X, and I was like, yeah, here’s a picture of him with his wife and his three kids, well, the wife and the kids are all dead now, they got bombed in Lviv yesterday, and I was just like, ow, you know, that’s a [00:31:00]bad day.

[00:31:00] That’s a bad day. So today, if I’m complaining about, you know, my flight being an hour late, or the easy jet lounge being sweaty, and there being no chairs to sit on, always annoys me. Um, you know, I should probably go, you know what, let’s practice a bit of gratitude here. Let’s pad out. Let’s look at the fact that, I mean, let’s end positively.

[00:31:19] Like we live in the weirdest time in human history. It’s totally bonkers the time we live in this weird, strange, post modern world. But it’s like, It’s also just a massive opportunity, like my granddad was Irish immigrant who couldn’t write, my dad went to university, first one in my family, and you know, was a teacher, did okay, but had very limited life possibilities, um, and I’m in 20 countries a year, I get to speak to cool people like you on the other side of the world on Zoom, but a podcast, you know, I was interviewing a philosopher from Oxford University yesterday on my podcast.

[00:31:55] I’m talking to my publisher about the next book that’s going to be out. And like, I get to teach 

[00:32:00] really interesting things on self care and coaching. It’s like, my dad didn’t even know what a coach was. Like, he was a teacher, because that was the sort of nearest thing. Cause he also had the same calling, I think, you know, but he didn’t have the entrepreneurial opportunities and the creative opportunities, you know, all the healing or spiritual opportunities.

[00:32:17] Like my dad was an alcoholic, you know, I was too, but the difference was I got to do martial arts, meditation, 12 step trauma healing. I’d sorted my shit out by the time I was 28, you know, so I didn’t have a life wasted because I had access to all those psycho technologies. So it’s like externally and in terms of the internal possibilities, we’re just massively beneficial.

[00:32:40] And the correct response to that is to like cry with gratitude, really. Yeah. It’s true. What’s your favorite episode on your podcast that our listeners can go listen to now? Oh God, I’ve done 620. Favorite one right now, in this moment? No, I did Ken Wilber recently. Lee [00:33:00] was philosophical is one ages old with a guy who’s dying.

[00:33:03] That’s really deep. Uh, who’s dying a week before. Um, that was what I remember. There’s a really funny one with Paul Linden, who’s my embodiment teacher and Shinzen young, who’s a meditation teacher, and they’re both like these wily wise Jewish old guys, and it’s part of the sort of Jewish tradition to tell a lot of jokes.

[00:33:24] So that one would Shinzen. Um, I think that’s probably my all time favorite one. Yeah. Shinzen young and Paul Linden is an old one, but they’re so funny together. All right. Love it. I’m going to get, not for the, not for the easily offended as is all my work, by the way, this is me on good behavior today. You have that.

[00:33:42] You’ve been very, very pleasant. Um, yeah. Thank you so much for today and for your work in the world and for facilitating all of this. I’m super, super excited to share. Any last words for our listeners?

[00:33:57] Well, just in terms of self promo, [00:34:00] embodimentunlimited. com if they’re interested in training as a coach or anything like that. Um, but, last words, I mean, I’m an embodiment guy, I love embodiment, I’d say do something with your body you enjoy. Like, it doesn’t have to be the perfect practice. Do something you can fall in love with.

[00:34:16] I fell in love with Aikido, I’m currently in love with weightlifting. Like, just do something. You can fall in love with and then geek out about it and make friends for it. And whatever, ever it is, it’s not hurting you or anyone else. Why not just geek out, enjoy your body. That’s been my last message. Fall in love with the body.

[00:34:35] I love that. And guys go and check out the podcast and check out the website and like the thousand million resources there. We’re doing women’s rising. I’m teaching on the father wound in November, which I’m super excited about, but mostly because Mark, every single person that you, you create and is able to facilitate through those programs and all of the resources of yours that I’ve consumed, super grounded in reality.

[00:34:58] And I’m very [00:35:00] grateful for that. We’re very pragmatic. We’re very pragmatic. I think, I think It’s my vibe and I scare off, I call them the crystal shaggers. We scare those guys off. Uh, we scare off the white crowd who are just no fun. So, uh, what’s left is like lots of cool Aussies, Americans who are like, not too far left, they’re just sort of normal and pragmatic.

[00:35:21] Like, I think someone even said, they even said to me once, I said, Mark, I don’t. like you, but I like who you bring together. And I was like, you know what, I’ll take it because it’s not just me, right? Like, I know my course is like, you know, I’m not teaching on the Women’s Rising course. There’s like 15 awesome female teachers.

[00:35:36] So yeah, I, I think we filter well for the other teachers too. Yeah, I agree. Oh, beautiful. Thank you so much. A real pleasure Nice to speak with you. Hope this was useful for your free audience.